TES Economics

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TES Economics

Postby neildarkstar » Fri Jun 22, 2012 2:07 pm

I decided to take a little break from Morrowind, and I wanted to give my new computer a workout, so I installed Oblivion. I haven't played it in a while, and I instaled some mods I hadn't played before, like Oscuro's and COBL. I'd only been playing a few minutes when I discovered that the lates Oscuro's adds a new economic scheme, which basically breaks down to getting nothing for whatever you have to sell. Relatively anyway. merchants who did give 57 or 58% of value no give perhaps 42%.

Anyway, I got to thinking about it a bit, and it occurred to me that the residents of the Imperial City and Vvardenfell are some poor bastards... If the wealthy of these games was tryig to live in the US with thier relative wealth, they would live in trailer parks, drive 30 year old cars, and be getting food stamps...

I knew it was bad, but when I tried to pull a burglary, I knew things had hit rock bottom. I broke into a Redguard's house, and as I went in I stole an apple. After looking around a bit, I put the apple back and left a chun k of venison to go with it... Here's the thing though. As I was leaving the guy came home and caught me red-handed in house, and what do you think he did? He didn't call the guards, He didn't complain because I had broken in to his house (I presume he knew he had nothing worth stealing) but he hit me up for spare change instead!

When I think about it, there is no way this economy works unless they are in the middle of the Great Depression. In Vvardenfell, there is one merchant who has a couple of thousand gold, and he lives in the middle of the grazelands... in a tent yet!

That all doesn't really bother me, but then along comes some modder who wants "realism", and they inevitably reduce the amount of gold merchants have, or make it harder to barter with them, and consistently raise prices (10 gold for a loaf of bread?!? ). Personally, If I want to see a country where almost everyone is too poor to afford a pot or a window, all I have to do is look around me in RL... and then the RL poor folks are way better off than Vvardenfell's rich folk. As a modder, I may find it necessary to manufacture a "New Deal" and get some of these TES poverty-stricken merchants high-paying jobs digging ditches...

Hand the Duke a shovel, will ya?
:D
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Re: TES Economics

Postby DARoot » Fri Jun 22, 2012 6:52 pm

In my area, the prevailing solution seems to be --
-- Let the new immigrants (from El Salvador, or Iraq, or Afghanistan, or wherever we are fighting a "non-war" right now) take the low-paying jobs;
-- Then, let the General Populace write Letters to the Editor about how dreadful this is (either because they feel those people are being exploited, or because they object to having "those people" hanging around their local 7-11 waiting for transport to/work offers from the local contractors who are hiring at the moment);
-- Then, if you are an Elected Official, either declaim the practices as wrong, or assert your support for eliminating the "blight on society" [or, BOTH, usually ...] until you get re-elected...;
-- In the meantime, the Rich get richer, and the Poor get poorer ....

[Not that I advocate either method.]
But, talk about needing a "shovel"....

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Re: TES Economics

Postby neildarkstar » Fri Jun 22, 2012 11:30 pm

In my area, it's illegal Mexican immigrants, but in the meantime, if the truth was told, we have one of the highest unemployment rates in the nation... but not among illegals, eh? they all seem to have a cousin who can get them work when they get here.

the part that upsets me is the distortions that occur on all sides. there was a big hooraw a while b ack about how welfare recipients sometimes have wo or more computers in their homes. this was used to demonstrate that the poor are essentially rich. I got myself in trouble because I pointed out that those computers may be 10 or more years old, running obsolete operating systems, and are useless for anything but surfing the web. Aside from that, just because someone has fallen on hard times does not mean they have always been destitute. Buy a computer and a house one year, lose your job and the house two years later, and you will still probably have that computer because nobody will buy it from you. What's an obsolete used computer worth at a pawn shop?

As to the rich getting richer, I remember somebody told me once that the only purpose for wealth is the accumulation of great wealth, and the only use for great wealth is the accumulation of power. The only purpose for the accumulation of power is the accumulation of more power... so for the poor, the accumulation of wealth and power is a non-issue, as there is no place nor reason for them to start...
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Re: TES Economics

Postby Raym » Mon Jun 25, 2012 10:23 am

Actually, I did made a little mod for personal use that added *a lot* of stuff in Morrowind containers.

Instead of finding a couple of shirts, wardrobes were reasonably full of clothes; barrels and crates had a lot of stuff into them instead of just 4-5 pieces of meat or vegetables.
Also, there was more variety in the levelled list, so you would find different kinds of ingredients, weapons, armor, etc. and not just the same stuff over and over.

I should get back to that and refine the concept, I've lost the plugin when I reinstalled my pc...
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Re: TES Economics

Postby neildarkstar » Mon Jun 25, 2012 11:36 am

I would use something like that in a heartbeat!
:)
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Re: TES Economics

Postby Adul » Mon Jun 25, 2012 12:06 pm

Well if you take a look at what poor people in medieval Europe had owned, for instance, it isn't much more than what poor people in Vvardenfell have. A typical serf family had barely enough food/lifestock to last through the winter, a very basic set of pots for cooking, and a furniture set. If one or more people in the household could read, they might have had candles and a book or two in their possession (though usually the only book common folk had access to was the Bible). That's about it, life was indeed quite simple back then.

Now of course, lord, nobles, and other rich people had a lot more than their in-game counterparts, but I suppose that's more due to game balance considerations than anything else. Developers need to keep an eye out for how easy they make the game, and if players could just barge into the home of a noble and steal a fortune there then their game would become very easy indeed.

I realize my comparing Vvardenfell to a feudal economy is not very fair, however, since the citizens of Morrowind do not seem to be under serfdom. In fact, they appear to be rather modernized and urban for people out of a fantasy environment. But then the more I try to look behind the curtains and understand how Tamrielic economy really works the less sense it all seems to make.

In the end, I always fall back to my assumption that the whole economy is kept intact by the Psijic Order through magic. That is the best theory I've been able to come up with so far.
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Re: TES Economics

Postby neildarkstar » Mon Jun 25, 2012 6:23 pm

The other day i was playing Oblivion, going through a cave fighting imps, when a strange feeling overcame me. I suddenly realized that all of the random treasure chests were basically placed in the same places in every cave in the game, and since the caves, mines, and so forth are essentially linear, I might as well have been playing on a linear grid. Maybe everybody else has always known this, but for me, this was the first time I had ever realized that I was playing Ms PacMan with scenery. Or perhaps Mario Bros, jumping from place to place finding jewels, eh?

I have a feeling that I will never hear anyone talk seriously about "lore" or "realism" in these games again without thinking of how realistic the Ms Pacman world was... Oh well, it could have been worse, I might have found out it was like "Frogger".

Comparing it to a feudal world is very fair, I would think. There are empires, like Rome, and subject nobility, like the Duke, and factions in the form of Houses that take the place of competing Religions (only they are much nicer about it all). Personally, I would love to see nobility in-game with the wealth that they should have, and guarded in such a fashion that you can't just stroll in and take it without an army. A "No-Magic" vault zone with nearly unbeatable guards, and a real penalty for trying and failing that doesn't get removed by reloading the game after PC death perhaps...

If I weren't so bogged down by current projects as it is, I think I would be tempted to create a "concept" mod....

The economics of TES are mind-blowing. In the feudal setting, people wouldn't be able to eat because what peasant could afford a 10 gold loaf of bread, so riots and revolution would be just a snicker away. That would be an interesting development too.
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Re: TES Economics

Postby Nessa » Tue Nov 06, 2012 3:41 am

What? You think all the monsters, bandits and other undesirables shouldn't place thier highly valued treasure chests in the SAME EXACT spot all over Cyrodiil!? :biggrin: :biggrin:

Supposedly all the levels were designed by one guy (and poorly I might add). OOO helps quite a bit but I need some ... well I'll count! It takes 168 mods to make Oblivion even playable for me. :o

Incidentally, OOO's version of Enhanced Economy isn't the latest one. Also some thievery mods really help out with the fact that -nobody- has much to steal. However, I kind of like that -one- aspect. A bunch of dorks in a slum wouldn't have much other than an apple to steal anyway. It might be the one and only point Bethsoft got right in the whole game. Though I still wonder why treasure chests are scattered across caves. At least the Ayleid stuff sort of made sense, but not really. 2000 years and nobody's looted the reliquary on the main level before the traps!? ;)

EDIT: Whoops! Looks like I'm a tad late to this conversation! *laughs* :frustrated:
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Re: TES Economics

Postby neildarkstar » Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:00 pm

Better late than never! :D

I never really expect realism from a RPG fantasy game... but at least a little logic would be nice. When I was young I used to spelunk (but ony in the closet with my clothes on and... wait, that was something else..

Anyway, I used to go into various caves all over the US. I spent a lot of time in caves around New Mexico and Arizona, and I never found anything other than rare spiders and cave crickets, and then only near the entrance in the "twilight zone". In fact, I know of only two caves in the US with credible stories of lost treasure hidden within. Caves in reality are exciting because of inherent dangers and the fact that you never know what types of formations you might run into in a "wild" cave, but in a game that would be fairly boring.

Natural treasure would be far more likely than a chest somebody put 3 gold coins into and dragged half a mile inside a cave, then placed where it would be certain to be found. By natural treasure, I mean perhaps gems, or fossils, or unique formations... like thunder eggs or something.
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Re: TES Economics

Postby Nessa » Sat Nov 10, 2012 11:04 pm

When I do cave areas for mods (for any game really) I generally have no treasure chests at all unless it's some kind of bandit hideout. And if so, any chests are in one location that is VERY WELL GUARDED. Tamriel bandits must be among the most stupid thieves ever! ;)

I could never do real caves I think. I don't like small encloses areas or the idea there's a bunch of ground over my head. Curiously... I don't mind submarines. Yes, I'm odd. :bouncy:
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