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Wolflore » View topic - LGBT - Community, political lobby, or just plain bullies?

LGBT - Community, political lobby, or just plain bullies?

Common sense, isn't.

Re: LGBT - Community, political lobby, or just plain bullies

Postby neildarkstar » Fri Sep 04, 2015 12:49 pm

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Re: LGBT - Community, political lobby, or just plain bullies

Postby Elaura » Fri Sep 04, 2015 2:09 pm

Never assume people of science are smarter than you. I've known too many of them to believe they are smarter than the average person. In fact, some the smartest people who ever lived were not members of the scientific elite. They weren't even scientists. Leonardo Davinci is a perfect example. Artists are generally not mentioned in the same sentence with scientists. Davinci was, for all intents and purposes a scientific lay person. Einstein was an underachiever working as a clerk, but he had an uncanny knack for physics. A 12 yr old gypsy named Nicole Barr has an IQ of 162, equal to Einstein, yet she doesn't even consider herself smart.

While I agree wholeheartedly in the concept that opinions are safest in the realm of taste and points of view should be backed up with factual arguments, the key here is "factual". The scientific community is just like every other community. There are liars, thieves, cheaters, jerks, and murderers. They should no more be considered above fudging the numbers than laypeople should be blown off as not being "experts". While a scientist may spend 10 years on a study resulting in a singular outcome, it is often the layperson who looks at all the studies and discovers the whole picture.

Science defines itself as starting with a hypothesis and moving toward proving or disproving it. The money to do the experimentation comes from playing the political game and getting the grant and the space in the university labs comes from playing the academic game. Scientists do live in a self-perpetuating bubble. Laypeople often have the good fortune of being "hobbyists". Able to change their perspective and their minds when the data leads them elsewhere, rather than having to explain to a financier why 5 years of research is wrong in light of some new information.

An analogy might be gaming companies and modders. Bethesda, for instance, released Morrowind over ten years ago and moved on. There are people who have been playing Morrowind and modding for it for those full ten years. Who would you expect to be the experts on the game today? Bethesda employs professional game developers. Experts in their field, yet the hobbyists know more about Morrowind than the CEO of the company. The same can be said for fan-fiction writers versus the original authors. FF writers have to take an author's entire body of work into account to write a canon story, yet an author can simply change canon. This may be flippant but scientists are known to change the numbers if they don't fit.

What all this means is, scientists are not smarter. Letters behind names and fancy titles don't mean a thing to anyone outside of their own community. Laypeople should not be discounted because they haven't dedicated their lives to one field, in fact, you can probably get a bigger picture of the world and how science fits into it from a layperson, rather than someone who has been looking through microscopes and collating data to get those letters and titles.

I find it very interesting that science is no less dogmatic than religion.
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Re: LGBT - Community, political lobby, or just plain bullies

Postby Adul » Sat Sep 05, 2015 3:07 am

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Re: LGBT - Community, political lobby, or just plain bullies

Postby neildarkstar » Sat Sep 05, 2015 3:55 am

Well, it's really not worth arguing, your opinion differs from mine, but perhaps it also has something to do with those differing cultures as well.

Let me tell you something that's funny though. You now what I was saying about lawyers advertising late night? Well, starting usually about 10pm, here in the states we start seeing ads placed by pharmaceutical companies touting their latest drugs. You see smiling faces, of healthy, active people doing enjoyable things, while a soft-voiced spokesperson extols the virtues of whatever drug they're selling... the idea being that the healthy, active people you see are healthy and active because they take drug X.

Then, as the commercial nears its end the background music will get a little louder, and happier and more light-hearted (if that's possible) while a new yet still soft voice comes on, and in a hushed tone, an speaking very rapidly tells you that taking this drug may result in a brown, oily, rectal discharge and internal bleeding, or the loss of your limbs, or suicidal tendencies. if your erection lasts more than four hours, call your doctor, and do not take the medication if you take nitrates for chest pain as it may result in a sudden and dangerous drop in blood pressure.

Now for the funny part. an hour or so after the commercials urging you to take these drugs, the lawyers ads will start to appear urging people to sue the pharmaceutical company for deaths and other negative results of taking the very same drugs that were being advertised by the pharmaceutical companies an hour earlier...
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Re: LGBT - Community, political lobby, or just plain bullies

Postby Elaura » Sat Sep 05, 2015 5:43 pm

Neil is not exaggerating, not even a little bit.

You hit the nail on the head Adul. "In their respective fields" can even be narrowed down to the subject their experiment is based on. For example, I'm sure I've mentioned this before, a true, honest to God nuclear physicist/rocket scientist from John C Stennis Space Center would come to my jewelry counter every Spring and Fall to have me set his digital watch for daylight savings time and back again. He told me his VCR had been blinking 12:00 from the day he turned it on and still did. The Stennis Space Center was where the large external fuel tanks for the Space Shuttles were made and refurbished if they were going to be reused.

In college I took courses from professors who taught because they had to teach a certain number of classes in order to maintain their places in the research labs. Among other classes, I took radiation biology, physiology, pathogenic microbiology, immunology, electron microscopy, paleontology, anthropology, chemistry, physics, abnormal psychology, sociology, criminology, philosophy, and even a semester on the JFK assassination by a man named Kurtz who wrote a book on it.

My instructors were truly brilliant, however, to the last, except maybe the radiation biology/paleontology prof, they had no clue how their research applied to the average person's life. In fact, it was my RB/Paleo prof who told me it was extremely likely my electron microscopy prof would die of cancer because no matter how many lead plates there are between a person and the machine creating the radiation, exposure over time would get him. It did.

Perhaps it is different in different cultures, but you are also correct in that it is up to the individual to decide who to consider an expert on which subjects. I wouldn't call myself an expert in any of the fields I studied, but I did get an extremely accurate "bullshit meter" from the experience. I learned how to spot a liar, what proper research requires and looks like, and how to read published research with a skeptical eye.

As a matter of fact, it is thanks to my background in sociology, psychology, and biology that I feel I can comment on the LGBT community, the lifestyle, and the real biology behind gender identity. That, and growing up in Southern Louisiana where it was particularly unpopular to be a "sissy" right up until I went to college where it suddenly became quite trendy to be bisexual and the life of the party was often the flaming drama queen.

On last thing to note, as with the term "sane", the term "expert" has a different definition within the legal system than it does in common usage. When I refer to "experts", unless otherwise noted, I am using the term's general conversational meaning rather than legal definition. The same with the idea of a scientist, though to clarify, I mean those people who claim scientist as their occupation, not folks like me, who consider science more of a hobby and form of constant entertainment.
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Re: LGBT - Community, political lobby, or just plain bullies

Postby Adul » Sun Sep 06, 2015 4:42 am

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Re: LGBT - Community, political lobby, or just plain bullies

Postby Elaura » Sun Sep 06, 2015 8:14 pm

Yes indeed. Blind trust is a fault no matter who is doing the trusting. I am always most skeptical of anyone who totally dismisses someone, because even when I disagree with an issue, or a person in particular, by listening to their perspective, I can often glean information I didn't have before. As I think I said in another thread recently, the more information you have the better able you are to see the whole picture. Very often people who are outside of a particular issue can see shenanigans going on inside the bubble more clearly than those involved. More often than not, emotions run high and the lines get drawn in total disregard for the fact there may be more than two perspectives.

This is actually why I made this thread in the first place. I saw people within the LGBT community doing their best to shove Caitlyn Jenner into a mold of their own choosing. They have begun telling her how she should think, act, speak, and feel.

I hope Caitlyn has the fortitude always shown by Bruce. If she does, she'll recognize their bullying for what it is and start to resist. I also hope she doesn't lose her entire support network when she calls bullshit.
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Re: LGBT - Community, political lobby, or just plain bullies

Postby fable2 » Sat Sep 12, 2015 12:15 am

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