[WIP] Raym's Big Pile of Clothes for AAA

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Re: [WIP] Raym's Big Pile of Clothes for AAA

Postby Elaura » Fri May 15, 2015 1:43 pm

Hmm. I have a couple of suggestions . . .

Since you have Nord lists, I'm thinking you plan on giving certain clothing only to Nords? II think, maybe a weighted list would be a better idea, especially since in cold weather climates, even soldiers tend to "go native" if the clothes they are issued aren't warm enough.

What I mean is, the miners and Imperials on Solstheim and maybe even far northern Morrowind might also have a chance of wearing Nord clothing. Though i would imagine adjusting your concept for climate/location might be a bit more complicated (ok, a lot more) than you'd want to get into. Redguards, in the same manner, might have a higher chance of wearing something colorful and/or metallic. It might be accomplished by the user by adding certain leveled lists to certain races, no matter their house or occupation.

As for the heels. A girl has to have shoes. The high heel footwear looks a little too high, though. The only people I can imagine having the balance to wear them is Vampires and Elves . . . maybe even only vampire elves.

If it were me, I think I'd pick one style/color of shoe for each outfit for the leveled lists. Preferably something fairly reasonable, unless it is one of those Victoria's Secret model outfits with the stockings, panties, shoes, etc. That way, if you have to change something for male/female, it'll just be shoes. By reasonable, I mean closed toe, preferably not an extremely bright color, lower heel and leaning away from the patent leathers. I would certainly expect to find a Noblewoman in Vivec wearing 6" heels for her husband in the bedroom, but not so much in, say, a Telvanni town, where the heels would likely poke holes in the architecture.

I don't mind getting into details with this if you want to discuss it further. I fully understand my personal preferences aren't necessarily the direction you want to go and I'll try very hard to help you keep it as simple as possible and prevent feature creep.
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Re: [WIP] Raym's Big Pile of Clothes for AAA

Postby Raym » Sat May 16, 2015 4:40 am

Yup, people on Solstheim will mostly have Nord clothing. I've also used it for Nords in Morrowind, just because they look cool wearing that stuff!
Exceptions are for Nords in Great Houses etc., or wearing better clothing than Common.

Yup, High Heels Footwear looks... well, impractical for everyday use. Also, colors used are too bright and shiny in my opinion.
So I don't think I'll be using it for the time being.

For the rest, I'll be using heels and tights only on Extravagant outfits and above.
That's the kind of stuff that one's wear for looks rather than comfort. :P

I'll clarify two points:
- Every item will be wearable by both sexes. Many clothes added by mods are for one gender only, so I'll use some similar item to use for the other sex.
- The levelled lists used by NPCs will be filled with "outfits" rather than single clothing items. These are "shirts" than when equipped will show up as shirt, pants, shoes and whatever else: a complete "outfit". This is the only way I have with Morrowind engine to be sure that NPCs will have good looking clothes instead of missamatched items in clashing colors. :P

The player will find both single clothing items and outfits used by NPCs in clothiers inventories.

I'm not sure on two things, yet:
- Oftentimes I have more clothes for females than for males. Since, as I said above, every outfit must have both a male and a female version, what should I do? Either I don't use the female clothing in excess (such a pity...) or I use some of the ones for males more than once; males are gonna get doubles, though...
- I'm not sure what to give to the Tribunal Temple NPCs as "their" clothes. The only stuff I found that could be interesting is asian style clothes. I'm not entirely sure if that style suits the Temple, though.

@Elaura:
Please, by all means... feel free to suggest and elaborate.
I AM asking for opinions, so don't be shy! :bouncy:
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Re: [WIP] Raym's Big Pile of Clothes for AAA

Postby Elaura » Sat May 16, 2015 2:35 pm

I've always thought of the Temple as being like monks. Wearing cheap robes in public, unless it's some high rafter-bat. I wouldn't even bother with shirts or pants for anyone in a robe, either. Just sandals or cheap shoes; doubles would be expected. After all, pilgrims really are poor and it never hurts to look like you need the money when asking for donations.

Since you aren't going to get one-to-one with the male and female outfits, I think doubles would be your best bet. A lot of men buy their clothes the way the mannequin in the store is wearing it, right down to belts and shoes. It wouldn't be all that unlikely to see two or more men in the same town wearing the exact same outfit. Women can be a bit more particular and don't tend to wear their clothes like uniforms, meaning the exact same way every time, so clothiers are less likely to even *have* two female outfits alike.

I love the idea of complete outfits, too. I get so tired of dressing my followers piece by piece as if I didn't, they'd wear their underwear on their heads.
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Re: [WIP] Raym's Big Pile of Clothes for AAA

Postby Raym » Mon May 18, 2015 5:31 am

Yup, I'll just do doubles and that's it... by the way, I'd hate to throw away some good outfits just because I don't have anything to match for the other gender. ;)

I like the idea for the Temple.
That asian clothes will be good for Expensive and above, which means some of the higher ranking members, while the lower members will go with the simplier stuff.
There will be some overlapping between Temple and "generic" Monks, but I guess that's not a big problem...
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Re: [WIP] Raym's Big Pile of Clothes for AAA

Postby Elaura » Mon May 18, 2015 2:12 pm

Monks, pilgrims, and temple "monks" aren't much different in personality, either.

As for things you don't think quite fit, you might give those just to the merchants in Vivec? Maybe a few boxes in the coastal and Imperial towns, though I certainly wouldn't expect a merchant in Raven Rock to sell bright blue open-toe sandals unless he got the shipment by mistake.
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Re: [WIP] Raym's Big Pile of Clothes for AAA

Postby Raym » Mon May 18, 2015 4:49 pm

Initially I was thinking of giving trader NPCs a good number of randomly spawned clothes; I even added empty levelled lists to containers hidden in each of their stores, divided by type (there are different lists for Imperial style traders, or Great House traders, etc...).

However, now that I'm working on this I think that it would be a shame to just find a few of all the clothes and outfits available for the PC to buy.
So I think I'd rather add full, restoking selections to the various merchants.
They will still be different, based on the individual merchant (no Imperial stuff in a Redoran town, mostly Nord clothing in Solstheim, etc.), but you will find all the single clothing items plus outfits if you travel around the whole game world.

Eh, my female characters tend to be quite the fashion victims... :biggrin:

I tend to think more of Imperial-style towns as "cosmopolitan" - that is, even a variety of fashion styles.
Vivec, barring the Foreign Quartier, doesn't look that "open", to me. I mean, maybe the Hlaalu... but for the rest, with all those big meany Ordinators wandering around...

...though walking around in a skimpy dress would give "We're watching you" a whole new meaning... :lol:
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Re: [WIP] Raym's Big Pile of Clothes for AAA

Postby Elaura » Mon May 18, 2015 7:24 pm

I was thinking of the markets in Vivec, actually. Though the individual cantons may have particular styles, they would merge somewhat in the main gathering places like the Foreign Quarter and the Arena. Especially with Ebonheart so close. Though the police and the priests would dress similarly, I would expect the nobility to embrace a bit of eclecticism. Less so, the farther from the city they are.

I always thought of Mournhold like that, too. Different sections of town certainly have their own feel, but the Great Bazaar wouldn't be that great if all it had were Dunmer styles.

Coastal towns like Dagon Fel and Seyda Neen would certainly be able to get anything anyone happens to prefer, no matter the origin. As a matter of fact, One would expect the merchant classes as well as the nobility to dress as fashionably as possible. The commoners would be the ones most likely to ignore current fashions.

Ald Rhun and Mar Gaan, being particularly cut off, would most likely stick to local trends, while Molag Mar and Ald Velothi would be exposed to a variety of fashions.

I don't mean to make your job more difficult, just suggesting you keep the location of the towns in mind. I think merchant inventories in general should have less variety the further inland one travels. I definitely agree that most Imperial towns would be well-supplied with the styles of the mainland cities, you might consider Caldera a bit of an exception to the rule. I can see the denizens being a bit more "provincial"?
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Re: [WIP] Raym's Big Pile of Clothes for AAA

Postby Raym » Tue May 19, 2015 11:37 am

No problems about "difficult" here, really... compared to sorting and matching all those clothes, choosing what to give to a given trader is a walk in the park! :mockery:

I see what you mean with Vivec, I think I'll do it canton-wise.

For the rest, I think Hlaalu will be just as open as Imperials, while Temple and Redoran towns will be a lot more conservative.
Mournhold is a big city and, if not that cosmopolitan, it does have a Hlaalu ruler!

I'm not sure about what you say for coastal towns... In Morrowind, most of them are fishing hamlets or little more.
I'd see it more likely to find different styles in Sadrith Mora than in most other coastal towns (Seyda Neen, after all, is referred to as a "damp little squat").
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Re: [WIP] Raym's Big Pile of Clothes for AAA

Postby Elaura » Tue May 19, 2015 3:25 pm

Ahh, but every "damp little squat" has wannabe nobles who like to put on airs, Eldafire comes to mind. They'll often pay a fortune to get something "special" from the mainland, though rather than go through official channels, they are just as likely to buy from the black market (smugglers).
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Re: [WIP] Raym's Big Pile of Clothes for AAA

Postby Raym » Tue May 19, 2015 5:02 pm

..and while happily strolling in the land of merry clothes, I got suddenly hit on the head by the anvil of how bodyparts work in Morrowind engine. :frustrated:

So, well, long story short: I'd say a good 95% of the clothes that don't already come with both a male and female version, can't be made that way.
That's because of how the stupid engine works, but in short: it just can't be done, at the very least not without a lot more skill in modelling than what I actually have or are likely to ever have in this life. :mockery:

So, I guess I have 2 options:
1) Give in to frustration, cry like a baby and maybe wait to see if OpenMW will ever help in this regard, if/when it's completed;
2) Rework my lists.

Option 2) will mean that many clothes will be wearable by only one gender, and I'll have to "mark" them somehow, so that the player knows. Of course, it will also be quite a bit of work, though I'll have to ONLY do half the NPCs again. :mockery:

Well... I'm done venting, for now. I think I'll sleep this anvil hit over. :biggrin:
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